Deletion of the chat logs.

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Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:19 pm

First, on the risk of sounding overzealous, this is a serious topic and we should keep this discussion civil. I can't personally enforce this here like I could in the chatroom itself, but if I judge necessary I'll formally ask for the GM's and Forum Mods' intervention.

I am announcing something that I've been working on for something like 2 months now. I'm thinking on this ever since the showdown with Cthulhu ended.

We agreed to not release the logs for public view because there is personal information contained in it, and we couldn't settle on a satisfactory way to censor it for public reading. However, the log is still in the chatroom. This means that, in the same manner Sophie can extract them, anyone else could do so by writing a script of their own, and that would be something done without our knowledge and authorization. And yes, there is personal information that should not be made public scattered in it. I know, all the log readers will know what I mean, and of course, whoever said things regarding health conditions or family matters and other such intimate subjects will know that it is there.

Deleting the logs partially solves that problem.

All the game logs are preserved. From the room creation to January 4th, encompassing most of the Post-Mortem. Sophie has a copy and, as of today (02/24/2013), so do I, for backup reasons. I anticipate some claims regarding "Why Pixel", so I'll address these now. It makes sense to have independent copies so that we ensure the content is not lost. I'm taking this responsibility because I'm both the original creator of the room and have been in there and read through essentially all of the content as it went up. Perhaps not as thoroughly as someone who read the logs every morning, true. But not much less than them, and as an admin of the chatroom it makes sense that I'm the one to do it. I am to safeguard the content so that it is not lost until it is properly censored for public view and released for reading. Sharing it with more people is unnecessary in regards to upping the security, and would be detrimental to actually keeping personal information out of view. And while I'll agree that any one who read the logs would be a viable choice, as an admin I do believe it is my responsibility, I hope you'll understand that and that you trust me enough to do this. The important message is that the logs from the ARG will not be lost permanently with the wipe of the ones stored in the chatroom.

As to the point of "losing content", the logs as they are there, are ultimately out of reach. It's unpractical to hit the "previous" link to recover that information. In that sense, keeping it there is useless. It's already lost by staying out of reach. Loading more than a couple dozen hits makes the client lag and potentially crash, losing the loaded content and making it, ultimately, impossible to access from the chat.

  • As a first step, deleting the logs manually, periodically, is the proposal here. Once a week, one of the chat mods deletes all logged content. All five chat admins have already agreed to this unanimously.

But as a solution that is only partial. It's a compromise in that it'll change as little as possible about how things work. But it still leaves a big chunk of content in there for an extended period. Doing it once a day would be too much micromanagement, it'd be unpractical to the point of being unworkable. It essentially requires the chat admins to punch clock every day for the task. I'll not ask them to do that, as this is not a job.

  • So, I wish to, in fact, disable the logging completely. It perfectly denies the possibility of anyone copying the logs from outside the chatroom.

All messages on screen will remain on screen as long as you don't exit the room. Regarding connection issues, everyone can see that what happens is that when you can't stay in the room you're usually unable to stay in the conversation. And about context, there's nothing stopping us from being civil and asking a simple "what's up?" and actually talking to each other, as that is what we already do anyway. Particularly on these last few weeks, there have been very few instances of someone actually entering the room in the middle of an ongoing discussion, when it happened, as I observed, a laconic of the topic at hand was usually provided. So yes, we can work without it.

My last point is that we no longer have a canonical topic that we are required to chronicle. We use the chatroom to hang out and chat casually. If something deserves to be permanently registered, we bring it to the forums, where it is indexed, searchable and open to more people than those only in the chat at that moment. It's how we pushed ourselves to behave during the ARG, I fail to see how it should be different than that now. And again, we no longer have a topic to chronicle from every single source.

This particular idea is not something I have discussed with the chat admins yet. I'm making it public here so that everyone can express their opinions on the matter. Lastly, as a disclaimer, the logs are still there. I didn't delete anything yet.
Last edited by Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby narrativedilettante on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:26 pm

I'm opposed to the idea of having no logs whatsoever. I use the ability to go back into the logs fairly frequently, even though I'm not an avid log reader.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:28 pm

Fair enough, but in that case, what's your opinion regarding the weekly clean up?
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby narrativedilettante on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:30 pm

I don't really LIKE the idea of a weekly deletion, but if people are concerned about personal information being kept in the archives, I won't try to stop the implementation of a method for them to feel more secure and safe in the chatroom.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Adell on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:41 pm

I don't like the logs at all tbh, and was never a fan of copying the logs or whatever to preserve them. Especially now that the arg is over, there's really no need for them. I pretty much agree with all your points
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:48 pm

I am absolutely against disabling logs for the same reason that I complained about lack of them in the awful backup chat-- because when someone comes in, that person immediately is overwhelmed due to lack of context. Most people check "see previous" when the come in just to see the last few lines of conversation before they appeared, just so they know what's going on. This would be especially frustrating for people having connection issues and being repeatedly booted from the chat, who would just get a bunch of fragmented lines, totally devoid of context, and wouldn't be able to check the immediate logs to even see people's advice on how to solve the problem that was sent while they were being booted.

As to periodically deleting-- I'll put this out there: Shortly after the game ended, I tried opening as far back into the logs as I could just through "see previous", and it wouldn't offer any logs beyond two weeks before. So as far as access is concerned, I'm not even totally convinced that it's necessary.

If you still feel it's a concern, however... well, I'm still against it. I would ask that you settle on a specific TIME for this log-deletion, and it can still be a source of great frustration-- though if it's a weekly thing, it's more likely to frustrate me personally than everyone in general. I'd like to discuss my remaining concerns with the chatmods via PM.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Lordxana0 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:53 pm

I think a weekly deletion would be for the best. After a week all information put on the chat becomes pointless, because honestly if something important was put on there then it was most likely backed up already or put on a forum, and if not then it is your own fault anyway. If you really feel you missed something then ask someone and we will tell you all about it. Especially now when we don't have game critical information, it is mostly just a place for metaguards to hang out. Once the game starts we can easily just copy and paste the parts we want to keep and save them on the forum.

In the end I see no reason why a weekly cleaning of the logs shouldn't happen. It helps keep us secure and in all honesty I don't see what we lose from it.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:04 pm

In reply to Qara: Taken and considered.

It can still be accessed by any sort of script, however. Your experiment just proves my point that the in-room logs are as good as gone hence it is no reason to justify either side of the argument.

The way you put context, as I have outlined, is something we can do without. The frustration from the disconnections on itself is enough to break conversation, regardless of being able to see the content or not. Like I did for Dilly and Scarab (today!), advice to solve the issue can be shared through the forums avoiding the frustration of repeated disconnections. So I disagree that it is necessary. This is, like I said, my personal opinion on the matter.

As on settling upon a specific TIME, I said before, this is not a job. I don't mind a general outline, like "Wednesday at night" for instance. But imposing a punch clock for myself or the other chatmods is something I won't do.

I'm willing to listen to your personal issues regarding it, either through forum PM or chat PM. And I'll consider them.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Scarab on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:16 pm

Perhaps it's because I'm just not the kind of person who reads too much into the backlogs, unless I've just come back after a server crash and missed things, but I really don't see the point of keeping extended chatlogs. If people want to go back a little and catch up on context, as Qara pointed out (which is perfectly reasonable) then the weekly deletion shouldn't interfere with that: people will still be able to catch up on the current conversations.

But since we can't get back very far anyway I really don't see the point in KEEPING it all. We have the logs of the game stored thanks to the lovely Sophira, sp anybody who wants to catch up on the game itself can do so.

On a more personal level... I'll be honest, guys, while I'm all up for keeping some of the chats and enjoy being there an awful lot... sometimes it feels a bit uncomfortable for me to know that ALL THIS INFO is out there on the web, not immediately accessible, true but THERE. We put a lot of our hearts into that game, sometimes things were said that were startlingly honest and open, it feels a little exposed. That's just my feeligns, though, others I'm sure may disagree.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:18 pm

Yeah, I think everybody knows how I feel about logless chatrooms. For those who don't my position is that I will just cease to show up entirely. I'll miss talking to you guys every day, but once I disconnect for whatever reason, then I'm probably not going to show back up.

As for weekly deletions, weekly or every other week PROBABLY won't cause trouble, but the scheduling of said deletions WILL, seeing as you delete everything up to the current time wit the in chat deletion option. What should be best is if we could get the program to autodelete everything that ages past a week or two. However, I doubt there is actually a way to do that. In that case, all that remains is to talk about when these log deletions are going to happen every week. I really don't think it is needed personally, but if other people suspect stalkers or something, then I'll allow them to do this to reassure them.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Adell on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:21 pm

Scarab wrote:Perhaps it's because I'm just not the kind of person who reads too much into the backlogs, unless I've just come back after a server crash and missed things, but I really don't see the point of keeping extended chatlogs. If people want to go back a little and catch up on context, as Qara pointed out (which is perfectly reasonable) then the weekly deletion shouldn't interfere with that: people will still be able to catch up on the current conversations.

But since we can't get back very far anyway I really don't see the point in KEEPING it all. We have the logs of the game stored thanks to the lovely Sophira, sp anybody who wants to catch up on the game itself can do so.

On a more personal level... I'll be honest, guys, while I'm all up for keeping some of the chats and enjoy being there an awful lot... sometimes it feels a bit uncomfortable for me to know that ALL THIS INFO is out there on the web, not immediately accessible, true but THERE. We put a lot of our hearts into that game, sometimes things were said that were startlingly honest and open, it feels a little exposed. That's just my feeligns, though, others I'm sure may disagree.


Agreed, though I'm still for removing logs personally. Sure context might be a small problem, but is easily remedied as pixel has pointed out. Is it really so important to see everything everyone says all the time, I think not and I do find it a bit odd honestly. If we MUST keep the logs, then the once a week thing works, but I really think the whole thing is unnecessary outside a small bit of convenience and we should just ditch it. Like pix said, anything of major importance should be posted on the forum anyway.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Dryunya on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:25 pm

The ARG logs are safe, so I don't mind deleting the rest. Since you are worried that someone else might read the recent logs, you might want to set up a private chatroom - that requires some effort, but solves the privacy problem (more or less).

Personally, I'd set up an IRC chatroom with a dedicated logbot with a web interface and 48 hour log rotation, but I don't have the madskillz to pull it off.

tl;dr: Go ahead and delete them, it's fine if our legacy is not lost. :gurt:
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Scarab on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:47 pm

Well we have a plan for the Game Logs, which we are going to message sophira about, so hopefully you'll all see some movement on this matter soon
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Blurred_9L on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:24 pm

I don't mind the weekly deletion of the logs, although I'll probably miss being able to hit previous once just to see exactly what's going on. I'll guess I'll adapt to that, so it's fine whichever way you decide.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Victin on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Maybe a monthly or a bi-weekly log deletion, by the time when nobody is in the chatroom. Also keeping said logs for one week stored somewhere in case someone needs them.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:06 pm

Victin wrote:Maybe a monthly or a bi-weekly log deletion, by the time when nobody is in the chatroom. Also keeping said logs for one week stored somewhere in case someone needs them.

That is a lot of time, more than can be accessed casually. Anything older than one week is unnecessary to keep, and the idea is to not let the chats just laying there needlessly. So a longer interval than one week makes little positive difference, but leaves the content there for longer.

Extracting the logs weekly to save is... Well, basically against the whole idea here. You'd still be keeping it and possibly in a worse and more visible place than they would be inside the chat. Especially if the whole idea is to share it away. :|

The optimal solution would be if the chat itself could be programmed to not keep anything older than a set arbitrary timer. But Neatchat doesn't offer that function, so I feel that the closest we can get to a optimal rate is once a week.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby The Wild West Pyro on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:54 pm

Do it, if it's for the sake of our personal data anyway.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:31 pm

One other point I forgot to mention earlier because I REALLY have no time for this today: Even though the game's over, often important information goes down in the chat, and the people around don't remember/bother to put it in a forum post. For example, the time I copied Soph's BTS discussion from the logs so it wouldn't be lost for posterity, or the time I was about to make a Chain Wars post when I found a Chain Wars discussion in the logs which radically altered my understanding of how the game was supposed to WORK.

Also, I think I mentioned this when Soph first brought it up, and I'll reiterate here-- I volunteer to be part of the Game-Log-clearing team, naturally. (Ironic that this is yet another useful thing I learned the details of in the logs, prompted directly from a discussion of the log deletion.)
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:45 pm

No need to be snarky Qara.

The one week time is more than enough for the information to be brought here, like it was in the particular case you mention. Especially so if everyone is aware that it will not stay there forever. And, so far, you are the only person to oppose the weekly deletion.

Vic, arguably came close to your position in questioning the time frame, but everyone else who manifested themselves, including other log readers are ok with it. I'm afraid that if the majority supports it. Then it will be done.

Don't worry about having no time today or even tomorrow. We're not making that decision on a click, if we were, I could simply call the unanimous chat mod agreement and just tell the forums that it is done. ;)

And on your last remark, that discussion you mention is not even nearly a day old. It would still be there under the weekly deletion. And on top of that, I'll make a new thread on the log status soon enough, so don't argue that you would be cheated out of that information, please.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:52 pm

Well, I wouldn't say I support the deletion, but I also am not really against it if people believe that it should be done. As far as I'm concerned it isn't really that important to delete the logs weekly, but if people find that necessary for their peace of mind, then fine, I won't get in the way. The only huge problem weekly log deletion will cause me is if it happens at exactly the absolute wrong moment and through a disconnection combined with an absence I lose some of the logs. Hence my comments that we should, if we choose the weekly deletion option, carefully come up with a schedule for deletions so that stuff like that becomes less likely since log readers know in advance when it is coming.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Qara-Xuan Zenith on Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:59 pm

Pixelmage-- I apologize if my comment sounded snarky; that was not my intention. I probably should have included a smilie to better indicate that I was simply expressing my delight at noting an excellent example of irony. Or just left out the comment entirely. My mistake.

However, your response brings to mind another concern/potential solution I have, similar to what Sicon just posted: Even a conversation "not half an hour old" might be lost in a "weekly deletion", depending on when that week "ends". If you had deleted logs last a week ago, then by the time I got here, you might have deleted them again, erasing the half-hour-old conversation as much as the week-old ones.

You didn't like the idea of a set time for deletion; another option which I just raised to Adell is the idea of, say a 36-hour-warning post, so people will know when the logs will be deleted and won't be blindsided by the sudden lack of context.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Scarab on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:05 pm

If people are making big important changes to roleplays and so on, why not do it via PM? If people really need the knowledge to be around for longer than a week, surely it needs to be written down somewhere more secure anyway, not left lying around in the chat for people to find only by chance? I know for a fact I wouldn't rely on important info being ehard in the chatroom, I'd make a FORUM post. A warning post is a good idea, too, if people are concerned they're going to lose stuff close to the deadline.

I've always managed fine without backlogging even when the game was in process, but now it's a lot less nessecary.

As for preparing the chatlog... If we want to clear this beast of a log up for public viewing (is that worthwhile, really?) then we'll need a team to do it, it's HUGE. I do not want anybody to underestimate the size of that job like I did. And after chats with a couple of people I'm starting to think it was a mad suggestion. That said I guess it's existence would solve any 'but we need informaton that is older than a week' issues we have... But I don't really WANT to remember a lot of those arguements.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Pixelmage on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:07 pm

That is perfectly fine. And I did test it, Sicon.
Like I said, I won't schedule down to the minute. But assume for instance what I think is a good schedule: Wednesday at night.
It's in the middle of the week, and it accounts for Qara's usual offline weekend.

As long as you are connected. Everything that is loaded will stay loaded. If you have the logs from monday until that moment on your screen, you will see a message that "The logs were deleted by [ChatModName]", in which case, if you refresh, you'll not be able to load anything older than that message. But what is already on your screen, remains there.

Save for a case of disconnection, windows update, power failure or anything of the sort, even if you are AFK during the wipe, the messages you have from being on the room will not be wiped out. In your particular case, I believe this is what will happen. Of course, if your windows decided to update and restart, well, then that's something I can't account for.

But again, a general "Day / Time of day" to do them can be agreed upon, I believe. And of course, it's a fair point, but everyone will be aware of the regularity of the event. Keeping up with the Wednesday Night example, it would be known to happen at that time. If there is any content worth transcribing to the forums, everyone will be aware that it should be done or it might be lost at that time.

By issueing a 36h post rule, you are, firstly allowing for arbitrary deletion. Namely, that I could do it at any time I wished, so long as I threw a heads up there. And in second place, it forces the chatmods to actively judge the content, which is both a heavier responsibility and room for anyone to just point and say "ChatMod is being prejudiced/selective".

We can avoid that by agreeing on a schedule, so that no one will be caught by surprise, and the moments aren't left to be determined arbitrarily.

Imagine for instance that I decide to call a deletion Friday morning, deleting the logs saturday night. Which I know to be your usual schedule offline. By instating your proposal, you couldn't complain about that unless you decided to challenge my judgement personally. I'm not saying I would do that, I'm just pointing out that your proposal gives the room to do so.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby Sicon112 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:58 pm

My point with the schedule thing is the same as yours. If we are going to do this, let's have a regular schedule to it so that everyone always knows when it is coming. I don't have any huge objections to your example time right off the top of my head, but others might, so let's discuss the schedule once we are entirely sure that a regular weekly deletion is what we are going for. It seems that way right now, but we can give people some extra time to chime in before moving on.
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Re: Deletion of the chat logs.

Postby eli_gone_crazy on Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:03 pm

I guess I'm a little late to the party, but I'm for deletion of the logs.

They have served their purpose, and its time to move on.
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